Ep.28: Victory is a Spirit - Unity and Resilience in the Face of Adversity

# Satanists Nextdoor Podcast
# Episode 28: Victory is a Spirit - Unity and Resilience in the Face of Adversity


00:00:01.439 welcome dear listeners to Satanist next
00:00:03.600 door we're your host lilan LaVin and
00:00:06.080 Tommy LaVin whether you're an openm
00:00:08.039 minded curious on licker or fellow
00:00:09.639 Satanist seeking camaraderie our goal is
00:00:11.799 to share our personal experiences and
00:00:13.719 delve into the intricate tapestry of
00:00:15.480 Satanism in our daily lives occasionally
00:00:17.960 inviting other guests to share their
00:00:19.320 unique perspectives leaving no pentagram
00:00:21.600 unturned we'll explore how our beliefs
00:00:23.800 shape our views on society dive into
00:00:25.720 struggles and triumphs we've encountered
00:00:27.560 and reveal the humanity that unites us
00:00:29.480 all so grab your favorite chalice and
00:00:32.119 join us on this captivating Journey
00:00:34.120 Satanist next door is ready to peel back
00:00:36.079 the curtain and offer you a glimpse into
00:00:37.800 our world one captivating episode at a
00:00:44.340 [Music]
00:00:58.920 time
00:01:01.239 hello and welcome to another episode of
00:01:03.800 Satanist next door today we are going to
00:01:06.280 be discussing something that many of you
00:01:08.439 have probably noticed circulating around
00:01:11.680 a collection of statements and open
00:01:14.479 letters known as victory is a spirit
00:01:17.240 having read through some of these we
00:01:19.240 thought that you know uh discussion was
00:01:21.759 warranted and so we invited some of the
00:01:25.680 uh some of the what would writers some
00:01:28.920 of the the authors behind the movement
00:01:31.680 behind the movement onto the podcast so
00:01:35.799 uh welcome everybody
00:01:38.759 welcome I'm going to let these fine
00:01:40.960 wonderful people introduce themselves
00:01:42.720 but I just wanted to kind of kick off
00:01:44.719 the the victories of spirit if you
00:01:46.360 haven't read it is a beautiful
00:01:48.040 collection of what the [ __ ] happened
00:01:50.520 after the Silverman debacle where the
00:01:53.360 amazing photograph came out from our
00:01:55.880 very unfavorite douche and um he went
00:01:59.000 ahead and made it very public that he
00:02:00.920 had visited the temple and had a little
00:02:03.479 photo op and tried to use that for his
00:02:05.960 own personal gains and uh there was a
00:02:08.080 very strong reaction on both sides and
00:02:10.280 on what I felt was a relatively positive
00:02:12.680 side a bunch of really cool folks got
00:02:14.920 together and decided to do something
00:02:16.319 about it and these are some of those
00:02:19.280 people all right all right well let's
00:02:22.800 jump in yeah yeah let's go for it hit
00:02:26.080 the ground why don't everybody introduce
00:02:28.599 themselves how about that let's start
00:02:29.959 with that a quick round of introductions
00:02:32.480 sounds good I am uh my name is Tanuki
00:02:36.120 sale Hatton I have been with TST since
00:02:39.959 2019 and I am based out of Chicago and I
00:02:44.200 work for TST TV now and I'm gonna pass
00:02:47.280 it on to Kaylee oh that's helpful do a
00:02:49.920 little popcorn um hi I'm Kaylee Kay uh
00:02:54.360 I've been uh with TST since
00:02:57.440 2019 um with minister
00:03:00.680 um couple of other things here and there
00:03:03.360 uh but I'm I'm just um I'm just a
00:03:06.239 regular person so I I
00:03:09.040 don't I don't know uh how much more I
00:03:11.560 can add but yeah I will pass it on to
00:03:15.360 Murphy hi I'm Murphy Fox I've been with
00:03:18.920 TST since 2018 or 2019 I'm not really
00:03:22.720 good with years times just fly these
00:03:24.840 days but for a couple years and I have
00:03:27.760 written an an article for free inquiry
00:03:30.760 magazine defending TST and I do my best
00:03:34.000 to support the community and but other
00:03:36.599 than that I'm pretty much a nobody and I
00:03:38.480 will pass it to Lilith Murphy you're not
00:03:41.360 a nobody thank you telling you you're
00:03:44.920 definitely a somebody who makes a
00:03:47.280 difference so but um yes um well thank
00:03:50.760 you very much for for from Tommy and
00:03:53.439 lyan for having me on my name is Lilith
00:03:55.959 star um I started the satanic temple
00:04:01.200 Washington um way back in 2014 so I've
00:04:04.760 been with the org for 9 years now um and
00:04:10.120 um I published a couple books on
00:04:13.280 Satanism one was called the happy
00:04:14.959 Satanist and then my latest one is
00:04:18.358 compassionate Satanism which takes a
00:04:21.160 pretty in-depth look at actual satanic
00:04:24.320 practice as we practice it in the
00:04:26.720 satanic temple so um oh and I'm
00:04:29.639 spokesperson for um TST Washington now
00:04:33.479 also so yeah I've been here a minute
00:04:36.039 awesome well welcome everybody and thank
00:04:37.800 you for this very needed and welcome
00:04:40.560 conversation thank you and there are a
00:04:43.120 lot of other people that contributed to
00:04:44.800 the letter as well and I just want to
00:04:46.440 give them props because it wasn't easy I
00:04:48.840 think a lot of people were scared to do
00:04:50.280 it so all of their voices matter too
00:04:53.080 awesome yeah definitely anybody that you
00:04:55.840 know contributed you know give a round
00:04:58.720 of applause or or thank you or whatnot
00:05:01.360 so how do we want to get this started um
00:05:04.919 one of yall want to sort of yeah give an
00:05:07.280 opening statement yep I think kick us
00:05:09.600 off let's go all right this Peril
00:05:12.960 belongs to all Middle Earth they must
00:05:15.120 decide now how to end it we're at a
00:05:17.320 critical moment in time and the election
00:05:19.199 year ahead of us could really change
00:05:21.000 Life as we know it we must ensure our
00:05:23.120 religious rights are secured and
00:05:24.919 exercised before they are completely
00:05:27.160 eroded now more than ever we can not
00:05:29.840 afford to self-destruct until now we
00:05:32.479 felt that questioning the tactics and
00:05:34.319 responses of tst's middle management
00:05:36.520 would result in us being further
00:05:38.319 excluded and denied opportunities for
00:05:40.360 growth within the organization today we
00:05:42.840 feel that not voicing our concerns makes
00:05:44.800 us complicit in allowing TST Metal
00:05:47.199 Management to brush under the rug not
00:05:49.440 only the most recent Purity spiral
00:05:51.440 featured on the Atlantic but also the
00:05:53.520 Abundant history of other similar
00:05:55.400 meltdowns with little to no
00:05:57.199 accountability nor a promise to find
00:05:59.639 better ways to resolve conflict that
00:06:01.639 don't result in communities being torn
00:06:04.000 apart or community members being
00:06:06.000 ostracized for disagreeing with a
00:06:07.840 Viewpoint we're gathered at this hour to
00:06:10.280 reflect to hold ourselves accountable to
00:06:12.919 P to figure out a path forward for all
00:06:15.160 of us so that we can get to work our
00:06:17.199 Victory when we stand together is a
00:06:19.680 triumphant Spirit hail Satan hail Satan
00:06:22.960 ha see all right well I don't know how
00:06:26.759 to follow that
00:06:28.400 upti that was well here here yeah and
00:06:32.919 and I I think there was a few points in
00:06:35.840 there that that were really important
00:06:37.479 the first was that this you know this
00:06:39.919 this picture thing that happened in the
00:06:41.599 Atlantic and yes it's been a little
00:06:43.160 while since it's happened but it isn't
00:06:45.840 the only time that a purity spiral like
00:06:48.199 this has happened which is the reason
00:06:50.080 why the conversation in letter started
00:06:52.960 you know kind of was put together is
00:06:55.360 it's not a onetime deal this seems to be
00:06:57.440 a reoccurring pattern and you all are
00:06:59.800 looking for a way to have some you know
00:07:02.360 have people take accountability for
00:07:04.160 their own actions feelings and make some
00:07:06.479 real changes right it's like says we
00:07:09.199 want to break the wheel well let's break
00:07:11.599 the damn wheel I would say we we want to
00:07:15.360 make a better
00:07:17.360 wheel don't just we need to upgrade the
00:07:20.000 wheel we need to upgrade the wheel
00:07:23.800 yeah yeah get get some some nice rims on
00:07:27.000 it
00:07:28.319 spinners
00:07:30.120 I'm in the break the wheel Camp break
00:07:32.080 the wheel and have a
00:07:34.120 mimosa I like this Camp too I I actually
00:07:38.240 have orange juice and champagne
00:07:39.800 downstairs so um mimosas were part of
00:07:42.879 the weekend already
00:07:44.560 planned
00:07:46.319 so well there we go all right I'll see
00:07:48.919 you all bright and no okay podcast is
00:07:50.759 done
00:07:53.800 thanks no I think I think you all had
00:07:56.199 some really important points and I think
00:07:58.759 what struck me me and one of the reasons
00:08:00.440 I reached out to Murphy and you guys for
00:08:02.440 this was because this is a long overdue
00:08:04.879 conversation we have a lot of talk about
00:08:07.120 our tenants and what they mean to us and
00:08:08.759 if they don't mean that we have to
00:08:10.080 challenge our own preconceived notions
00:08:12.120 as a community within one another then
00:08:14.479 what does it mean and I like the way you
00:08:16.680 guys are going about that so I'll let
00:08:17.960 you continue from there and um so does
00:08:21.360 someone want to describe I mean this
00:08:24.440 first meltdown you know was because of
00:08:26.360 the the David Silverman photo I think
00:08:28.560 sure I think guys that but the Silverman
00:08:31.360 photo was frustrating for me and one of
00:08:33.599 the reasons that I really resonated with
00:08:35.599 this was Silverman's a a known douche at
00:08:40.039 this point they had gone away from
00:08:41.640 public eye they found a way to get back
00:08:43.479 in with a nice triumphant Roar of
00:08:46.399 troll-like support and the way they did
00:08:48.720 that was they went to the Salem
00:08:51.160 headquarters they went through and did a
00:08:53.000 nice tour um Lucian at the time had
00:08:55.880 known this individual from many years
00:08:57.920 past as someone that was involved with
00:08:59.600 the atheistic organization that they had
00:09:01.680 met and spoke with them through not
00:09:03.399 really kept up with them much since um
00:09:05.640 and then this photo goes out on
00:09:07.360 Silverman's account and then things
00:09:10.079 begin to go to [ __ ] and what do I mean
00:09:12.240 by that well a bunch of people decided
00:09:14.519 to um fracture and use this as a way to
00:09:18.079 scream and cry about how their rights
00:09:20.200 weren't being met and their needs
00:09:22.000 weren't being met and they felt like it
00:09:23.959 was unfair and Lucian didn't care about
00:09:26.120 them and we should try to be everything
00:09:28.079 to everybody and and it was something i'
00:09:30.240 had seen in the past but this was at a
00:09:32.040 grand scale um so I was very frustrated
00:09:35.200 I understood from individuals in the
00:09:36.720 trans Community because of all the hate
00:09:38.200 that had been going on throughout the
00:09:39.760 United States especially through laws
00:09:41.519 and things why some were very hurt by
00:09:43.839 what they saw and some of the reactions
00:09:45.600 that were upfront I obviously understand
00:09:48.360 why there was some knee-jerk reactions
00:09:50.079 within that Community it was warranted
00:09:52.480 um but then when you have time to sit
00:09:54.040 and think and realize this wasn't from
00:09:56.160 Lucian it didn't come from them directly
00:09:58.880 and not because I think Lucian walks on
00:10:00.680 water because he doesn't and he
00:10:01.920 definitely does things I don't agree
00:10:03.320 with but this was one of the Dumber
00:10:04.760 reasons to point fingers at him and say
00:10:07.079 he doesn't care when he's been out there
00:10:08.760 for many aspects of the community
00:10:10.760 including the trans Community yeah and I
00:10:12.680 think I've always aad it to one Lucian
00:10:16.000 didn't post the picture you know it
00:10:17.519 would have been maybe a little bit
00:10:18.760 different had Lucian posted the picture
00:10:20.720 and then put a long paragraph about how
00:10:22.600 him and David went out had lunch talked
00:10:25.399 to each other talk [ __ ] about you know
00:10:27.640 whatever community and then went out
00:10:29.839 from there but that's not what happened
00:10:31.440 and if let's say Ted Cruz decided to go
00:10:34.920 to Salem and take a tour and then said
00:10:37.680 hey Lucian will you take a picture with
00:10:39.639 me and throw the horns Lucian would
00:10:41.160 probably stand there and throw the horns
00:10:43.079 and nobody would need Lucian to say oh
00:10:45.760 by the way I don't agree with Ted Cruz's
00:10:48.240 politics you know and so it to me it was
00:10:50.720 really that simple you you know so he
00:10:53.800 took a picture with somebody okay let's
00:10:56.360 move on I mean so that's kind of the way
00:10:58.680 I looked yeah and like I said the
00:11:00.160 initial response I got it but if you had
00:11:02.320 time to sit and think about it and
00:11:03.639 actually look at what happened and
00:11:05.360 nobody seemed to be wanting to do that
00:11:07.000 and the few that did like you guys were
00:11:09.920 kind of pushed aside as well you're just
00:11:11.720 not looking at the bigger picture and I
00:11:13.200 think the way you guys approached it and
00:11:15.120 what you are looking at is in fact the
00:11:17.120 bigger picture yeah I had a whole
00:11:20.200 process like it came out the picture
00:11:22.720 came out um and I saw the reactions
00:11:25.760 first um and um it just went on and on
00:11:30.880 and the reactions you know I didn't
00:11:33.360 really think about the whole picture
00:11:35.240 because a lot of the reactions were from
00:11:37.480 people I really respect that I've worked
00:11:40.040 with for years that are in leadership
00:11:42.440 positions um and and they all talked
00:11:46.240 about you know how harmful this was to
00:11:48.720 the trans Community um and you hit the
00:11:51.920 nail on the head like trans people do
00:11:54.480 have a [ __ ] ton of [ __ ] that they
00:11:57.360 have to deal with so sure it could have
00:12:01.000 when you when you think about it Without
00:12:03.360 Really pondering it through it's like
00:12:06.079 yeah that I see where people could be
00:12:07.839 upset what would it ca Lucian to just
00:12:11.120 you know say oh I'm sorry I I am in
00:12:14.519 support of trans rights um and I saw
00:12:18.600 calls for the tenants you know those two
00:12:20.760 tenants six and seven or seven and
00:12:24.600 basically like he made a mistake he's
00:12:27.399 fallible he should he should do what he
00:12:30.360 can to rectify the situation um but
00:12:33.600 instead of that happening Lucian got
00:12:35.920 more and more mad and his responses to
00:12:39.279 people like that were earnestly seeking
00:12:42.399 an answer on like how to process this I
00:12:45.079 guess um he was really snarky and angry
00:12:48.760 and um I only saw one person who's been
00:12:52.880 here in leadership for a very long time
00:12:54.680 who knows Lucian post as to why like he
00:12:58.959 understood the snark um because lucian's
00:13:01.680 like that way and he gets really mad um
00:13:04.920 if he feels he's people are trying to
00:13:07.079 force him to do something that he
00:13:08.480 shouldn't and what changed my mind
00:13:11.000 really was reading lucian's take on the
00:13:13.600 matter and realizing that the reason he
00:13:16.880 was so angry about all these calls to
00:13:20.800 make an apology um is that he thought
00:13:24.959 the harm that was done was insignificant
00:13:28.440 or maybe even you know to the harm that
00:13:31.959 TST was working on dismantling right now
00:13:35.839 and that's the theocracy of our country
00:13:37.959 who are passing laws that Target trans
00:13:41.279 people very heavily that you know could
00:13:44.440 force adults to De transition that Rob
00:13:47.920 children of their ability to get gender
00:13:51.000 care um and throw their parents in
00:13:54.040 prison for child abuse if they do get
00:13:56.639 that care they need um there's I'm sorry
00:13:59.680 there's just so much going on at our
00:14:02.880 trans communities that I saw lucian's
00:14:06.160 point that if we spend all this agonized
00:14:09.360 time and back and forth over a picture
00:14:12.399 that he took with someone he barely knew
00:14:15.000 then certainly didn't know was a trans
00:14:17.560 fob because everything happened after
00:14:19.759 they had known each other for a minute
00:14:21.920 um and Lucian thought nothing of posing
00:14:24.120 for a photograph and and that it was
00:14:26.120 Silverman who used that photograph and
00:14:28.839 posted it um but you know the anger
00:14:31.880 wasn't directed at Silverman it was
00:14:33.920 directed at Lucian and he was just so
00:14:36.600 frustrated that this is so much time and
00:14:39.720 energy and and debate that we should be
00:14:43.240 using in service to fix the real harms
00:14:46.880 that are happening to our trans
00:14:48.440 community and in fact at the time the
00:14:51.120 trans representation campaign that
00:14:53.279 ministers can do um was in the works and
00:14:56.800 I've seen that that's lucian's idea and
00:14:59.600 so it was ironic that while they were
00:15:01.519 yelling at him about being in a
00:15:03.360 photograph with somebody um he had
00:15:06.040 actively hit on a way where TSD could
00:15:09.399 help and that was that was exactly my
00:15:12.639 position you know as a trans person as
00:15:16.199 somebody
00:15:17.240 who like you know and of course I can't
00:15:20.759 speak for every single transperson and
00:15:23.560 you know I I recognize um like you all
00:15:27.800 have said the initial sort of knee-jerk
00:15:30.040 reaction to that um but without having
00:15:33.639 read lucian's piece that was exactly my
00:15:37.720 perspective um and when I heard about
00:15:40.800 this was just like I feel like we have
00:15:43.319 bigger fish to fry um and in in my
00:15:47.120 letter kind of talking about that was
00:15:48.920 like this is very serious [ __ ] like this
00:15:52.680 is all very damaging stuff that's
00:15:54.839 happening at a big scale um and we
00:15:58.199 really don't have time for this like I
00:16:00.720 want to recognize and hold space for
00:16:03.600 those initial reactions um but I think
00:16:06.800 escalating it the way that it it was um
00:16:10.399 is not conducive and and in some ways uh
00:16:13.079 damaging to the overall effort toward
00:16:15.959 stopping this massive scary thing that
00:16:18.680 is affecting me those I love um and
00:16:22.160 communities that I'm a part of so um I
00:16:25.240 felt that it was important to say
00:16:27.279 something from that perspective um you
00:16:30.560 know when I heard about all of this
00:16:32.880 absolutely yeah thank you for doing that
00:16:35.360 because you know I'm sis and I don't
00:16:38.759 know what the trans perspective is on
00:16:41.160 this and it seems like you know a lot of
00:16:43.839 people jump to the conclusion that all
00:16:46.120 trans people were so angry about it that
00:16:48.920 they might leave and I was like I can't
00:16:51.880 say anything myself for them but that
00:16:54.399 can't possibly be true they're not a
00:16:56.240 monolith but of course these people
00:16:58.600 wanted to think that everyone else felt
00:17:01.040 the same as they do I they did so thank
00:17:04.000 you for speaking up I think your voice
00:17:06.240 among the letters was really really
00:17:09.039 valuable um and speaking of the letter
00:17:12.119 like I had some moments that I wrestled
00:17:14.839 with whether or not I should contribute
00:17:17.520 and I'm in like one of the most
00:17:20.039 long-term well-known positions in TST
00:17:23.359 like I know Lucian and Malcolm you know
00:17:26.280 were sort of friends you know and just
00:17:29.360 like I myself had to Fear The Witch Hunt
00:17:33.200 and then I said you know what no [ __ ]
00:17:35.440 that I I think these things are really
00:17:37.720 important and I'm going to put them out
00:17:40.160 there um PST has a problem with conflict
00:17:43.799 avoid
00:17:45.480 avoidance and so you know we don't and
00:17:48.720 we have so much rejection in our
00:17:50.720 backgrounds that we really fear
00:17:53.320 rejection but you know sometimes you
00:17:56.760 have to put something above that fear
00:17:59.880 and this definitely seemed like the time
00:18:02.080 to do that and the reason for me
00:18:04.440 especially is that this is the same
00:18:07.480 pattern that has been plaguing TST from
00:18:12.159 almost the very beginning in 2018 we
00:18:15.960 experienced a backlash within the
00:18:18.799 leadership the congregation leadership
00:18:21.320 of TST because um some celebrity had
00:18:26.360 either tweeted or retweeted a message
00:18:29.600 that people should go burn down our
00:18:32.600 Salem headquarters and so Lucian was
00:18:34.960 trying to get people to report that you
00:18:37.159 know threat and instead what Twitter did
00:18:40.600 was block his account um and fan was
00:18:43.960 never given the blue check of
00:18:46.640 verification which public figures get
00:18:49.679 and like he's a pretty public figure
00:18:51.880 anyway um and we thought it was because
00:18:54.880 of our religion and so we we wanted to
00:18:58.440 Sue Twitter over that because that was a
00:19:00.600 real threat of harm um and the only way
00:19:04.480 that we could really get something out
00:19:06.039 of them was to point out lucian's lack
00:19:08.640 of a blue check and um a renowned
00:19:12.600 constitutional Free Speech absolutist
00:19:15.280 lawyer offered to to to represent us pro
00:19:20.000 bono and Lucian was like yes please
00:19:22.960 because contrary to what people think
00:19:24.720 we're not rolling in do these a whole
00:19:28.760 lot and it turned out that the lawyer
00:19:31.640 had represented some horrible groups
00:19:34.760 like you know white supremists and
00:19:37.320 neo-nazis but he had also like
00:19:40.559 represented the UCLA and the American
00:19:44.559 Muslim women's Association and very
00:19:47.039 leftist causes and somehow people lost
00:19:49.799 their minds and thought that if a lawyer
00:19:52.640 represents somebody who's terrible once
00:19:55.400 then that lawyer gets infected and
00:19:57.679 impure
00:19:58.799 and then Lucian accepting his help made
00:20:01.280 Lucian you know impure like this
00:20:04.520 contagion um and it was it was just
00:20:07.679 ridiculous I thought but it we lost we
00:20:11.600 lost more chapters for sure than this
00:20:14.120 time I think we lost like we lost
00:20:16.280 Portland La um I think Austin and New
00:20:21.440 York so we lost four at least four
00:20:24.320 chapters wholesale just like the UK
00:20:26.640 chapter left over this yeah back when
00:20:28.720 they were still
00:20:29.799 chapters right and when I think about
00:20:33.120 what harm was done by using the lawyer a
00:20:35.880 there isn't any and compared to the harm
00:20:38.400 of those four chapters leaving our org
00:20:41.760 and ceasing to fight with us for these
00:20:44.760 really important harms you know to stop
00:20:48.240 them there's just no sense of proportion
00:20:52.240 so I don't I don't want to keep seeing
00:20:54.480 that because it happens in like it
00:20:57.400 happened in our congregation it happened
00:20:59.799 in others it happened in different years
00:21:03.360 because of different reasons but it's
00:21:05.679 all the same pattern where there's no
00:21:10.159 perspective taking and people get really
00:21:14.080 emotional and upset over something that
00:21:18.000 shouldn't cause them to leave a group
00:21:20.039 that is fighting real harm that is being
00:21:22.480 done right um and I'm tired of seeing
00:21:25.400 that yeah and the Constitution like oh
00:21:27.640 sorry oh you're fine I'm sorry for the
00:21:29.600 Silverman photo like I'm just going to
00:21:31.559 quote what the Atlantic said there were
00:21:33.159 calls for griefs to apologize to seed
00:21:35.440 power to reaffirm his support for Trans
00:21:37.600 rights the Temple's British congregation
00:21:39.559 announced within 3 weeks that all 41 of
00:21:42.039 its members had voted to leave they soon
00:21:44.240 rebranded themselves as satanists in the
00:21:46.000 wilderness in the United States the
00:21:47.880 temple sober faction which had been
00:21:49.960 providing court ordered sobriety
00:21:51.600 programs for people who dislike the
00:21:53.440 Quasi religious structure of alcoholic
00:21:55.320 synonymous also objected strongly to the
00:21:57.679 picture and so I want to make sure we
00:22:00.559 say this because we're you know sober
00:22:01.960 faction did not leave but People's Court
00:22:04.360 ordered recovery was interrupted because
00:22:06.720 of a photograph mhm yeah yeah people
00:22:09.640 that were in a leadership position in
00:22:11.960 subber faction left and it took TST a
00:22:14.880 little while to you know obviously
00:22:17.080 replace those seats so it yeah it it
00:22:19.440 interrupted People's Court order
00:22:22.240 sobriety not only that I I mean I can't
00:22:26.080 I I can't break anonymity but
00:22:28.520 I've seen at least one of my
00:22:31.039 acquaintances in the satanic Community
00:22:33.840 um relapse over it yeah and then kind of
00:22:36.919 drift and you know as as a former addict
00:22:40.919 I can tell you that like once you go
00:22:43.039 back to the
00:22:44.320 addiction it can be really hard to come
00:22:47.279 back to you know the orb that that
00:22:50.600 supported you because there's a lot of
00:22:52.720 Shame not as much as na lays on you but
00:22:56.200 oh yeah yeah wasn't just like whether or
00:23:00.000 not they go back to jail now um but it
00:23:04.000 was also potentially life ruining
00:23:06.559 because you relapse once and and it's
00:23:09.640 not a given that you're going to get out
00:23:11.799 of that yeah yeah so in my opinion the
00:23:14.360 reaction the overreaction to the photo
00:23:17.039 absolutely caused real harm oh yeah but
00:23:19.080 the photo itself caused no harm right
00:23:21.279 should have caused I would agree with
00:23:22.919 you and back to your the the lawyer
00:23:25.559 thing that you were talking about it
00:23:27.039 just seems like there's this lack of
00:23:29.640 understanding of how certain um
00:23:33.159 occupations work right you know well
00:23:35.400 because the Constitution applies to all
00:23:37.240 people whether or not we like them is
00:23:38.880 irrelevant to the fact that the
00:23:40.760 constitution still applies to their
00:23:43.200 right to appoint to speak about what
00:23:45.559 they firmly believe whether or not we
00:23:47.360 think that some of those opinions are
00:23:48.919 horrible and fair to say they still have
00:23:51.200 the right to have them right and that's
00:23:53.360 the lawyer's job is his job a lawyer's
00:23:56.000 job isn't to judge their client their
00:23:59.000 their job is to uphold the law you know
00:24:02.640 did did this person was one of their
00:24:06.240 rights taken away from them yes or no
00:24:08.200 you know and that's their job is to
00:24:09.640 fight that that you know not to say oh
00:24:12.480 I'm not going to take you as a client
00:24:14.200 because I don't like blue hair you know
00:24:17.360 and you got blue hair it's so much less
00:24:19.000 about the lawyer or David Silverman or
00:24:21.080 any of these people and much more uh are
00:24:23.520 we adults in the room and who's doing
00:24:25.679 this work and who's involved in this
00:24:27.240 work and I think what you guys really
00:24:29.080 touched on here I think um I so one of
00:24:33.840 the reasons that um one of the reasons
00:24:37.000 why I decided to
00:24:40.159 basically go down this path of saying
00:24:42.960 something was because I realized that I
00:24:45.000 was afraid of speaking up about it but I
00:24:49.240 also realized that this is a pattern and
00:24:51.880 this is something that like this is not
00:24:54.559 sustainable MH period Point Blank I
00:24:57.320 don't know how people have been able to
00:25:00.039 do this over and over and over you know
00:25:02.159 like I like this this just cannot
00:25:04.559 continue we need to we have so much like
00:25:07.799 what I'm trying to say is that I
00:25:09.360 essentially realized I was afraid and I
00:25:11.799 looked at the big picture and realized
00:25:14.080 hey I have to I have to deal with this
00:25:16.240 fear I have to be an adult I have to
00:25:18.320 work through this and I have to figure
00:25:20.200 out how to do something about this even
00:25:22.159 if it means that I'm moner sized from
00:25:23.919 the community because this is bigger
00:25:26.120 than me and and my social anxiety and
00:25:28.640 whatever the [ __ ] I was afraid of is
00:25:31.080 bigger than me it's bigger than all of
00:25:32.679 us like this is literally for the future
00:25:35.360 of our community so that we can just
00:25:37.360 stop doing this [ __ ] and and be a true
00:25:40.480 community that builds each other up and
00:25:42.600 that so that we're not [ __ ] falling
00:25:44.279 apart and picking friends and picking
00:25:46.440 sides and all this [ __ ] I'm [ __ ]
00:25:48.000 tired of that [ __ ] I'm tired of that
00:25:49.840 [ __ ] and and and yeah so it's just like
00:25:53.279 if you know if I I guess like if I'm
00:25:56.200 going to if I'm going to burn the bridge
00:25:58.480 I'm going to burn the bridge by saying
00:26:00.200 we need to do better and we can do
00:26:02.039 better because everybody is [ __ ]
00:26:04.200 amazing and we could do so much [ __ ]
00:26:07.880 awesome [ __ ] if we can get over this but
00:26:10.600 we first have to face it we have to
00:26:13.120 acknowledge it we have to just be real
00:26:15.480 about this [ __ ] like like Lilith was
00:26:17.520 saying like this [ __ ] goes way back I
00:26:19.279 didn't even know about the details of
00:26:21.520 this I've heard about it but I didn't
00:26:23.279 know the details and this was like you
00:26:24.919 mean to tell me that it's literally the
00:26:26.919 same thing it's like come on y'all we
00:26:29.080 are grown as hell we we have to confront
00:26:32.200 this and we have to fix it like there's
00:26:34.440 just no other way around this yeah right
00:26:37.559 and I think I think it's really
00:26:39.480 important um for us to also recognize
00:26:42.679 that there is a whole bunch of ego
00:26:44.600 wrapped up in these patterns like
00:26:47.120 they're not doing this I mean they say
00:26:49.360 that they you know are trying to change
00:26:51.919 us for the better or whatever but what's
00:26:55.080 really happening is that they sense
00:26:58.120 that there's an opening for them and I'm
00:27:01.240 not talking about every single person
00:27:03.039 who posted this stuff but there but like
00:27:05.679 you know some of the people that left
00:27:07.960 and took their whole like subgroup with
00:27:11.120 them um they see it as um a possible
00:27:16.240 inroad to get a whole bunch of people on
00:27:19.840 their side to basically defect with them
00:27:23.880 um and then they get to be the leader
00:27:26.640 and that's how I've seen stuff happen
00:27:29.679 again and again especially within our
00:27:31.919 own congregation we had a series of
00:27:35.039 three leaders that were
00:27:38.240 authoritarians and you know that they
00:27:41.720 took power right after the big Anarchist
00:27:45.399 group had tried to take power and had
00:27:48.679 left and stolen the congregations you
00:27:52.000 know intellectual property that we've
00:27:54.080 worked on for eight years at that point
00:27:56.480 or five years and anyway um you know
00:27:59.320 this isn't just a matter of real versus
00:28:01.799 imagined harm and like reaction versus
00:28:05.240 overreaction um there's a lot of there's
00:28:09.039 a lot of power seeking and that's that's
00:28:12.559 true in every corner of TST especially
00:28:16.000 for Satanist because we get people who
00:28:18.399 are sure their way is the right way they
00:28:21.039 disagree with their congregation leader
00:28:24.080 or Lucian or any of these people and
00:28:27.159 they start pushing um like we had
00:28:30.720 somebody who was running our Facebook
00:28:32.960 page for a minute when I wasn't
00:28:34.840 leadership tell me that he wasn't going
00:28:37.799 to quote Lucian anymore on our Facebook
00:28:42.039 page because was problematic
00:28:47.880 so yeah I yeah I just had a what the
00:28:50.919 [ __ ]
00:28:52.440 moment yeah I think that people are
00:28:55.640 often looking for opportunities to
00:28:57.640 launch themselves into this satanic
00:29:00.039 Spotlight and I honestly think the
00:29:02.480 Atlantic article if we don't learn to
00:29:05.039 break the cycle is just a dog whistle
00:29:07.600 for any opportunistic narcissist they
00:29:09.960 learned from this article I just have to
00:29:11.519 come in get a couple people to like me
00:29:13.799 then complain about all this [ __ ] and I
00:29:16.240 can leave and people will follow me it's
00:29:18.600 you know it's a blueprint at this point
00:29:20.360 if we don't stop it right I will say
00:29:23.080 like in Earnest you know I I have this
00:29:26.840 suspicion
00:29:27.919 that um if you're trans and you're
00:29:30.840 online um because the world is so scary
00:29:34.200 right now and part of the reason why I I
00:29:36.320 took a break from social media was
00:29:38.279 because the way that it's structured is
00:29:40.559 to amplify uh everything negative and
00:29:44.240 that could be infighting amongst your
00:29:46.240 friends so oh I'm having a feud with so
00:29:49.120 and so and you can't talk to so and so
00:29:50.960 without um angering so and so and all of
00:29:54.039 this so that was part of the reason I
00:29:55.720 took a break but another was one that I
00:29:58.120 think for me explains um the tendency
00:30:01.399 toward overstating harm which was that
00:30:04.120 when you're on Twitter and you're
00:30:05.559 refreshing your timeline and you see you
00:30:08.480 know um Matt Walsh or JK Rowling tweets
00:30:11.919 at the top of your timeline which was
00:30:14.039 increasingly common for me um and and
00:30:17.000 news sites saying like oh this new bill
00:30:19.320 just passed and now there's a bunch of
00:30:21.919 people who can't get their hormones in
00:30:23.600 Tennessee like it the whole world starts
00:30:26.399 to look
00:30:28.159 terrifying and I think that has caused
00:30:31.960 us as a community whether that's
00:30:33.600 satanists or trans fokes or trans
00:30:35.840 Satanist to see harm or the potential
00:30:39.159 for harm everywhere he always hiding
00:30:42.480 behind a corner about to get you exactly
00:30:45.240 and you you there's that very human urge
00:30:47.240 to try and preempt it so I think you
00:30:50.559 know if we look at it with between folks
00:30:53.640 who are trying to seize power I I do
00:30:56.519 also think there's this segment of
00:30:57.679 people who are earnestly scared and that
00:31:00.080 makes a lot of sense to me because when
00:31:02.080 I I unplugged when I uh did the fabled
00:31:05.320 touching of the grass um there was a
00:31:08.360 period of time that where I went out
00:31:10.480 like I was so you know like nervous when
00:31:13.760 other people would glance at me like
00:31:15.720 just walking down the street and after I
00:31:17.880 had spent some time touching the fabled
00:31:20.440 grass I felt better and like talked to
00:31:23.559 people more and felt more like wow maybe
00:31:26.760 things are not as bad and I think that
00:31:29.679 for me makes the most sense as to why we
00:31:33.159 we have a tendency to overstate harm
00:31:35.399 because that brings me to privilege like
00:31:37.679 you know the the harm that could
00:31:40.440 possibly like physically be caused by a
00:31:43.639 photograph is nowhere near the harm that
00:31:47.120 is faced by you know the 20 some odd
00:31:50.279 trans folks who are murdered this year
00:31:52.080 it's nowhere near the harm faced by
00:31:54.240 trans people of color um or or trans
00:31:57.679 kids in you know the 22 states that have
00:32:01.000 bans on gender affirming care now um
00:32:04.559 those laws that were just passed this
00:32:07.200 year um are doing very real harm and I
00:32:10.159 think that this serves as a distraction
00:32:12.279 our tendency toward overstating online
00:32:15.120 harm pushes us away from uh a very
00:32:18.840 unified opponent uh who is getting [ __ ]
00:32:21.880 done uh really scary [ __ ] so I I
00:32:25.360 understand it and I I think you know
00:32:27.799 seeing it from that lens too and trying
00:32:30.200 to have some level of empathy and
00:32:31.880 compassion while also being like we can
00:32:34.919 we can do better we can apply a more
00:32:36.840 abundant mindset to this and say let's
00:32:39.960 look at the bigger picture and focus on
00:32:42.240 the work that really needs to be getting
00:32:44.120 done which by the way a lot of people
00:32:45.960 are doing um I think one of the
00:32:48.440 reactions to to my S portion of the
00:32:51.960 letter was like I people are doing this
00:32:54.639 it's just not something that we see or
00:32:56.600 is talk talked about a lot of people are
00:32:58.519 working very hard on this behind the
00:33:00.360 scenes and I think that's also important
00:33:02.600 for not just me to remember but um for
00:33:05.080 folks who understandably have that
00:33:07.919 knee-jerk reaction to be like TST is not
00:33:10.519 doing enough for Trans people or so and
00:33:12.679 so um It's A Hard fight and I recognize
00:33:15.559 that there are people doing that work
00:33:17.279 and I think if we focus on that and put
00:33:19.639 ourselves to work as well we'll see a
00:33:22.519 lot more progress absolutely absolutely
00:33:25.840 I mean Kaye I I can't tell you how many
00:33:27.639 people I hear talk exactly the same as
00:33:30.200 what you're doing there's so many
00:33:31.399 horrible things there's so many things I
00:33:33.200 can't go out I can't be myself I can't
00:33:35.600 and in States like Texas which is not
00:33:37.760 the only I mean we've got Florida we've
00:33:39.639 got many that are doing things right now
00:33:42.440 that are a definite risk to life and and
00:33:45.200 Liberty that all people especially trans
00:33:47.039 people should have the same rights and
00:33:48.760 Liberty that everyone else should have
00:33:50.799 the right to but our our people of you
00:33:52.840 know minority communities our trans
00:33:54.639 communities all these communities are
00:33:56.279 being very actually affected and here we
00:33:58.679 are with the outrage virus that I
00:34:01.240 believe Murphy you really talked about
00:34:03.320 that in a really well when you said you
00:34:05.679 know it it spreads it's contagious it it
00:34:07.880 just seems to overtake us and we kind of
00:34:10.320 let it have a life of its own yeah if
00:34:12.440 it's okay with you um can I just walk
00:34:15.760 through like the timeline yeah
00:34:17.679 absolutely all these events and you know
00:34:20.040 how we got to the point we're like okay
00:34:21.480 we have to write this letter yeah yeah
00:34:23.280 pleas it wasn't it wasn't an immediate
00:34:25.440 knee-jerk reaction you know people
00:34:27.000 weren't mad about this and we weren't
00:34:28.000 like oh my God we have to write a letter
00:34:30.239 um there were plenty of steps along the
00:34:32.199 way that made us feel this way so
00:34:34.320 beginning in June when it initially
00:34:36.079 happened and I was seeing all of this
00:34:38.000 social media contagion spreading like
00:34:39.839 wildfire my first step was to reach out
00:34:43.040 to Kaylee because I was like hey can you
00:34:45.520 explain this to me make sure I'm because
00:34:47.599 I was like why is this happening we need
00:34:49.280 to calm down but maybe we shouldn't I
00:34:51.520 need to ask a trans person who has this
00:34:53.599 experience and kayle's also just she
00:34:55.520 happens to be one of the most amazing
00:34:57.119 people I know and she's a great
00:34:58.359 professional and she's like she's got
00:35:00.240 such a solid grasp on reality that you
00:35:03.200 know Kaye can explain things to me most
00:35:06.240 times and this was something I just want
00:35:08.440 to clarify too this was something that I
00:35:11.680 have offered to you to be like yeah like
00:35:14.960 talk to me about that's something that
00:35:16.720 we do fairly regularly is talk about
00:35:19.280 these things because I think you know
00:35:21.400 the response to that would be like oh I
00:35:23.040 shouldn't have to educate you or like
00:35:25.119 you shouldn't you know all of that stuff
00:35:26.920 like that but this was definitely
00:35:28.680 something that I wanted to do and I
00:35:30.880 think that was a great step thank you
00:35:33.240 yeah and she helped me understand it and
00:35:35.359 you know then after that my next step
00:35:38.000 was to have a couple one-on-one and
00:35:40.119 small group discussions with leaders
00:35:41.960 that I saw acting like this was the end
00:35:44.040 of the world and honestly the conclusion
00:35:47.000 that I had after talking to all these
00:35:48.760 people and really like sitting down and
00:35:50.839 trying to understand why they did what
00:35:52.119 they did many of them weren't doing it
00:35:54.760 because they genuinely believed that
00:35:56.839 that the photo was harmful they were
00:35:58.920 doing it specifically for the Optics
00:36:01.599 because they felt this tra they felt
00:36:03.520 like if they didn't condemn the
00:36:05.880 photograph and didn't condemn Lucian
00:36:08.160 that they weren't being a good Ally to
00:36:10.160 trans people in our community and
00:36:12.280 conversely they felt like if they said
00:36:13.960 hey maybe we should take a step back and
00:36:15.400 calm down that they would be labeled
00:36:17.960 transphobic which they didn't want and
00:36:20.319 so that was like hard for me to process
00:36:22.640 I was like okay but I get it I don't
00:36:24.440 necessarily like it but I understand but
00:36:27.240 then I was witnessing middle management
00:36:28.800 and people with the authority to speak
00:36:30.480 on tst's behalf joining the outrage mob
00:36:33.160 and handing pitch Forks out so I decided
00:36:36.319 like simplest thing to do I've had all
00:36:38.359 these conversations I feel like I know I
00:36:40.200 know what I think so I tweeted my
00:36:41.880 opinion which was basically coties
00:36:43.440 aren't real you're choosing to be upset
00:36:45.119 over a photograph grow up and
00:36:47.160 immediately my DMs were flooded with
00:36:49.520 people thanking me for saying anything
00:36:51.480 saying they were too scared to speak up
00:36:53.400 some of them were even too scared to
00:36:54.800 like my tweet and you know the I was
00:36:57.319 like what the [ __ ] are you serious like
00:36:59.359 we're Satanist why why do so many people
00:37:02.160 care more about Optics than doing what's
00:37:04.680 right what's going on here so I don't
00:37:07.119 know by the end of June my conclusion
00:37:08.920 was that an apology or a plating
00:37:10.839 statement would be a huge misstep and I
00:37:12.960 also at that point I think it would be
00:37:14.240 flat out embarrassing because
00:37:16.240 essentially what we're saying is that
00:37:18.560 Satanist can't handle a photograph of
00:37:21.040 their spokesperson with someone they
00:37:23.400 dislike and disagree with while
00:37:25.240 simultaneously we're all all demanding
00:37:27.640 that Evangelical Christians accept our
00:37:29.520 satanic monuments in their state houses
00:37:31.920 and obviously I know the difference
00:37:33.760 between public and private private
00:37:35.760 spaces but I think we need to live those
00:37:38.400 principles and not be
00:37:40.560 Hypocrites exactly I agree it pretty
00:37:42.880 much died down and then you know it was
00:37:45.040 September and on a Thursday in September
00:37:48.119 we went to Indiana to assert our
00:37:50.079 religious right to equal participation
00:37:51.599 in public forums and we were listening
00:37:53.599 to satanic Planet play you know and when
00:37:55.760 you're in a in a building and people
00:37:57.599 know that Lucian Greaves is there and
00:37:59.000 you're doing a you know you're standing
00:38:01.040 up for your religious rights you don't
00:38:02.680 necessarily feel safe we kind of felt
00:38:04.920 like sitting you know like we're trying
00:38:07.440 to enjoy the music I was filming and you
00:38:10.119 could tell from the film that I was like
00:38:11.599 shaking and I was trying not to um and
00:38:14.359 we had a plan too because Liz was there
00:38:16.440 with me and I was like okay well since
00:38:18.720 I'm white when if somebody bust in with
00:38:20.960 a gun I'm just going to pretend like I'm
00:38:22.800 one of them and I'm going to grab you
00:38:24.400 and we're going to go out the back door
00:38:25.680 and I'm going to be like I got this
00:38:28.560 one this one's mine we were going to be
00:38:31.560 okay you know and I don't that just real
00:38:34.640 that sh was scary that [ __ ] was scary
00:38:36.319 I'm sorry afterwards we felt very free
00:38:39.640 like okay we did this [ __ ] and then
00:38:41.560 literally the following Monday after
00:38:43.560 that Thursday the Atlantic article
00:38:45.560 dropped and naively because I'm a
00:38:47.680 dumbass apparently I was like okay
00:38:50.000 people are finally going to agree with
00:38:51.760 me like this is a n International
00:38:54.359 embarrassment how he behaves like things
00:38:56.760 are going to change now I'm gonna see
00:38:58.280 accountability
00:38:59.800 and for the most part I only saw trivial
00:39:02.880 complaints about how the article talked
00:39:05.319 about our orgy policy I saw people
00:39:07.640 trying to blame the author saying that
00:39:09.160 she's transphobic I didn't see which I
00:39:11.760 found out later that there were some but
00:39:13.640 I did not see anyone who was in
00:39:15.440 leadership saying yes we embarrassed
00:39:17.520 ourselves besides Steven Bradford long
00:39:20.000 who was doing that from the beginning I
00:39:21.720 love him he's the best um so you know at
00:39:24.640 that point I'm like why aren't why don't
00:39:26.839 we realize how bad this was and
00:39:28.839 obviously this is going to happen again
00:39:30.680 so I spoke to a few leaders and I was
00:39:33.440 surprised to hear that some of them did
00:39:35.400 agree with me that it was handled poorly
00:39:37.520 but I was they told me that they were
00:39:39.800 requested specifically not to quote
00:39:41.960 unquote signal boost and that that
00:39:44.119 honestly really pissed me off because
00:39:45.440 I'm like if you're going to publicly set
00:39:47.400 a bad example you need to publicly set a
00:39:49.920 good example yep and so at that point I
00:39:53.800 was like if they don't care when the
00:39:55.079 [ __ ] is Headline News it's an
00:39:56.920 international embarrassment maybe
00:39:58.800 they'll wake the [ __ ] up if we hold up a
00:40:00.599 mirror and call them out so that's when
00:40:02.280 we first started talking about how and
00:40:03.920 what we could do or say instead of
00:40:05.599 remaining silent and like the gist of
00:40:08.359 that is since TST is inception TST as a
00:40:11.240 whole thankfully due to Lucian and
00:40:13.200 Malcolm and their long-term vision and
00:40:15.040 Leadership has preferenced principles
00:40:16.960 over Optics and that's why I've
00:40:18.760 consistently supported PP BD has
00:40:21.400 consistently practiced institutional
00:40:23.240 neutrality and we've stuck to our core
00:40:25.400 liberal democratic values not deviating
00:40:27.920 from them due to mob harassment
00:40:29.880 internally in any of the other instances
00:40:32.280 and this one is undoubtedly saving us
00:40:34.960 and preserving our credibility now while
00:40:37.200 we're under attack from some of the
00:40:38.440 highest placed politicians so we just we
00:40:40.760 can't we cannot and will not [ __ ] around
00:40:42.720 when it comes to our principles the
00:40:44.160 stakes are too high so then on October
00:40:47.480 7th we started this initiative and we
00:40:50.520 also we emailed it because the link was
00:40:52.400 you know when people added their letters
00:40:54.000 the link was updated and we emailed it
00:40:55.720 to em we want you to know we support you
00:40:58.960 we're on board just because your
00:41:00.880 leadership was told not to signal boost
00:41:02.599 doesn't mean that we're not embarrassed
00:41:04.359 by how this played out right yeah I
00:41:06.440 think you said something in there um
00:41:08.760 earlier where you were like what the
00:41:10.599 [ __ ] we're all Satanist and I can't tell
00:41:13.040 you how many times I've kind of thought
00:41:15.200 that to myself and even said it you know
00:41:17.200 it's like this really this is you know
00:41:20.800 with everything else going on this is
00:41:23.119 what is being focused on you know and
00:41:26.400 just insert something into this doesn't
00:41:29.079 have to be the picture it could be
00:41:30.280 anything else you know I've seen quite a
00:41:32.040 few uh Purity Spirals and and it's like
00:41:35.760 we're grown you know we're adults and
00:41:37.880 we're satanists we you know should have
00:41:41.640 better personal accountability I mean
00:41:44.200 that's a key part of Satanism for me
00:41:46.640 anyways um and you know recognition of
00:41:50.319 you know really I mean where is where's
00:41:53.040 the real issue here you know is this
00:41:55.599 really you know I don't know I I think
00:41:58.680 it was also important because a few of
00:42:00.760 you have talked about I'm afraid I felt
00:42:03.240 afraid to say things I felt afraid of
00:42:05.079 being ostracized kicked out removed and
00:42:07.520 that to me is terrifying because we are
00:42:09.800 an organization who is built on being a
00:42:12.560 collection of others we are all people
00:42:14.560 who have been othered by Society in one
00:42:16.920 facet or another and we know better we
00:42:19.319 know better than anybody that this is
00:42:21.280 not acceptable and if we can't look at
00:42:22.800 ourselves and deal with our own [ __ ] we
00:42:25.000 have a lot bigger problem problems and
00:42:27.200 you know Murphy talked about how you
00:42:29.680 guys were out at this event our lives
00:42:31.760 are on the line every time we do
00:42:33.359 something publicly and that shouldn't
00:42:35.200 even be a reality yeah how are we
00:42:38.000 fighting with each other when our lives
00:42:40.200 are at risk just for living our true
00:42:43.160 genuine lives whether you're a trans
00:42:44.839 person a Satanist you know lgbtq at all
00:42:48.359 you know a minority in many states your
00:42:50.960 life is at risk simply for existing
00:42:53.760 that's where we should be focused yeah
00:42:56.319 that's a really important part I kind of
00:42:58.200 don't want to address this because it
00:42:59.559 doesn't genuinely bother me but just
00:43:01.400 because it's been said I'll clarify some
00:43:04.559 people say that like us doing this just
00:43:06.680 means that we were like Lucian fan girls
00:43:09.240 and we have to agree with him on
00:43:10.480 everything and I just want I want be
00:43:14.280 clear when I read that Atlantic article
00:43:17.000 I felt embarrassed it made me want to
00:43:19.640 crawl in a hole because it's like if
00:43:21.359 this is how satanists are being
00:43:22.920 represented I'm [ __ ] embarrassed so
00:43:25.720 that's why I wanted to stand up against
00:43:27.400 it because y'all embarrassed me and I
00:43:29.680 think some of the reactions of like you
00:43:32.160 know who are we to be saying this like
00:43:34.920 who what role do we have how are we even
00:43:38.440 involved and I I think that doesn't even
00:43:41.359 matter so much like in in my part I
00:43:43.800 talked a little bit about the roots of
00:43:45.680 the word minister right like it has to
00:43:48.400 do with something smaller or less um
00:43:51.160 it's related to service and and being an
00:43:53.800 attendant and I think that is the answer
00:43:56.520 right there like even if you know we're
00:43:59.319 nobodies in this community we're still a
00:44:02.280 part of it and I think it should be any
00:44:05.960 ministers concerned or anybody's concern
00:44:08.640 in this community what other people in
00:44:11.079 the community think and feel and
00:44:14.000 experience and I I think you know on the
00:44:17.640 subject of of like this is happening
00:44:20.640 among satanists like I will say that
00:44:23.359 Christian nationalists and and Turfs and
00:44:26.400 anybody who's vocally anti-transgender
00:44:28.440 doesn't have those same qualms about
00:44:31.200 working with with people imperfect
00:44:34.720 allies we call them like turfs
00:44:37.079 especially like they they praise you
00:44:40.119 know Talking Heads like Matt Walsh and
00:44:43.280 he's like in direct opposition to
00:44:45.480 pro-choice feminism which turfs for you
00:44:49.400 know whatever that else they believe uh
00:44:51.760 may be pro-choice um I mean like you're
00:44:55.440 working with somebody who is very
00:44:56.800 strictly anti-abortion to work on a
00:44:59.319 greater issue and the fact that they
00:45:01.839 have that unity and we don't friends me
00:45:05.200 yeah yeah especially when it's like the
00:45:07.319 Baseline that we should expect like I so
00:45:11.200 I've heard from one of you here tonight
00:45:13.599 that you got your contribution in this
00:45:16.480 letter minimized because who are you
00:45:18.839 like you don't have a title you're not
00:45:21.040 in leadership and that really really
00:45:23.760 really bothers me because
00:45:26.480 that's not what TST is built on like
00:45:29.520 leaders aren't Gods they're not
00:45:33.119 infallible and like we are all we are
00:45:36.800 all individuals but also we all count
00:45:39.480 like our newest member if she sees
00:45:42.040 something aai and you know I don't see
00:45:45.680 it despite my nine years and like
00:45:47.920 multiple titles and [ __ ] I want to hear
00:45:50.359 it because it's all in the service of
00:45:53.280 making us better and we have to get
00:45:56.119 better for 9 years I've watched this
00:45:58.880 happen and it's like there's no thought
00:46:01.520 of proportion mhm so over the years like
00:46:05.400 TST is not perfect at all the first year
00:46:08.720 I was trying to build one of the first
00:46:11.000 chapters JX was supposed to be managing
00:46:14.160 us the chapters disappeared so we would
00:46:17.240 go for like eight months without hearing
00:46:19.480 back from Lucian or Malcolm because we
00:46:21.760 had to work directly with them to get
00:46:24.280 approval on any of our project
00:46:26.720 you know so from the very beginning
00:46:28.480 there was this very difficult challenge
00:46:31.720 um and it's been challenges all the way
00:46:33.599 up that might make some people leave but
00:46:37.720 I I just see our mission and our
00:46:41.359 accomplishments as an organization and
00:46:43.920 especially our unique power to fight
00:46:47.000 against the Christian nationalism that
00:46:49.119 is overtaken our country it's not even
00:46:51.839 scraping its way to power now it's in
00:46:54.160 power including in our Jud
00:46:56.720 system and I wish people would like when
00:47:00.079 I really thought about it um I saw an
00:47:02.839 equation so um say something happens
00:47:06.359 that upsets you like you see this
00:47:08.440 Photograph and you know David Silverman
00:47:10.520 is a transphobe um like that's you know
00:47:14.720 that could upset somebody but does it
00:47:17.040 counteract everything else good that all
00:47:19.400 these good people are doing and cies
00:47:23.200 that Lucian got and now suddenly he
00:47:25.240 feels a that's not how it works well and
00:47:27.559 consider consider like the alternative
00:47:30.079 right when somebody is is being
00:47:32.079 criticized I think it's important to
00:47:33.559 look at the okay what should I have done
00:47:36.160 piece and the question for me I think
00:47:39.119 really early on was like how do you deal
00:47:42.000 with that do you have to like check
00:47:44.040 everything that everybody's ever written
00:47:45.599 before they walk in the door some people
00:47:47.559 say no that's crazy he should have just
00:47:49.559 apologized well why like for what that
00:47:53.599 gets us into that like you can't answer
00:47:55.800 that first part of the question then
00:47:57.960 what exactly are you asking for an
00:48:00.040 apology for yeah um and and then it's
00:48:04.119 just ongo apolog mistake made right yeah
00:48:07.839 and then it's just every time something
00:48:09.640 happens there's an apology oh we need an
00:48:11.319 apology for this we need an apology for
00:48:13.119 that and then your job your job becomes
00:48:15.280 issuing apologies and not doing any work
00:48:18.000 exactly right right the Atlantic article
00:48:20.880 had one bright spot and it talked about
00:48:23.599 how all these other you know like the
00:48:25.800 clu and other really leftist like
00:48:28.000 Planned Parenthood organizations have
00:48:30.520 had this same problem where elements
00:48:33.960 within it force them to continue making
00:48:36.559 these statements and they do and it's
00:48:39.839 it's a lot of work and prevents them
00:48:42.359 from working but I think near the end of
00:48:45.160 the article the writer actually said um
00:48:48.640 like Lucian is the only one who has said
00:48:51.680 no and I'm like like that's satanic as
00:48:54.799 [ __ ] and I thought that should be cated
00:48:56.760 I'm like this is a good thing it shows
00:48:58.520 that we're
00:48:59.480 principles right it's like a road map I
00:49:02.000 mean I was really surprised more people
00:49:05.079 weren't just a gas and embarrassed and
00:49:08.920 like just like oh [ __ ] we got to do
00:49:11.160 better once that article came out um
00:49:13.880 luckily I did see several people um and
00:49:16.960 like my campaign manager from when I was
00:49:20.359 running the chapter um is very keen and
00:49:23.640 astute on watching the news and like the
00:49:26.520 themes for us and he sent me a link to
00:49:28.680 that article first before I saw it on
00:49:30.680 social media and said this is terrible
00:49:32.760 you guys need to change your internal
00:49:34.799 culture and I saw I think one or two
00:49:37.640 ministers saying that um but I mean this
00:49:41.480 it when you talk about contagion a Witch
00:49:44.119 Hunt is a
00:49:45.839 contagion especially in these days again
00:49:48.799 we're Satanist we shouldn't have to be
00:49:51.960 afraid to say what we see or what we
00:49:55.760 feel yeah and another criticism of the
00:49:58.359 fact that you know we went about it this
00:50:00.000 way we wrote the letters is that we were
00:50:02.480 you know I've been told well we have
00:50:03.920 committees for that and it it was done
00:50:05.839 it was handled it was put to bed there
00:50:07.200 was no need to rehash this and I'm just
00:50:09.799 thinking okay well if that's true why
00:50:13.720 when the Atlantic article came out why
00:50:15.839 wasn't it the standard reaction if we
00:50:18.280 really learned our lesson to be like
00:50:20.000 let's point out the lesson learned here
00:50:22.559 instead of attacking the author I don't
00:50:24.640 think anyone learned it so that's why I
00:50:26.760 wanted to try to teach it yeah I mean
00:50:28.799 and I still see an occasional comment
00:50:31.319 here there on other subjects you know
00:50:33.720 where people ask Lucian to step down or
00:50:35.839 something like that or you know you hear
00:50:38.079 Whispers of a you know people are upset
00:50:40.680 about something else and I it's it's
00:50:42.960 kind of ironic that this podcast you
00:50:45.280 know came together because I was
00:50:47.359 thinking of putting a podcast now that
00:50:50.079 we're coming into the beginning of a new
00:50:51.720 year basically saying if you even have
00:50:54.079 an inkling or a Feeling like you're
00:50:56.160 going to have a a public temper tantrum
00:50:58.760 and leave in 2024 just do it now make
00:51:02.359 that yes make that our new year make
00:51:03.880 that leap now just just do it now get it
00:51:07.359 over with you know we can we can you
00:51:10.040 know y'all can all do it at the same
00:51:11.920 time you could even you can incorporate
00:51:13.400 it into a destruction spell you could
00:51:15.000 light up some fireworks let see yourself
00:51:17.880 be let me know now yeah you know so it
00:51:21.720 was kind of ironic that it came together
00:51:24.359 like that you know and I I can also
00:51:26.280 appreciate because I've seen I can
00:51:28.440 appreciate Lucian where he sits in a
00:51:30.960 leadership position because he's kind of
00:51:33.079 in a damned if you do damned if you
00:51:35.040 don't situation you know if Lucian
00:51:38.200 doesn't say something then the feedback
00:51:40.880 is you're not talking enough about
00:51:43.680 inter whatever Community here because
00:51:47.119 violence is violence yeah because
00:51:49.240 because they they feel like TST should
00:51:51.680 be and you know it's an political
00:51:54.839 advocate you know instead of a religion
00:51:57.920 the other part is if Lucian says
00:51:59.760 something then it's you're not inter
00:52:03.680 same Community here sit down and shut up
00:52:06.960 you know and so it's like he's in a no-
00:52:09.440 win situation so I can appreciate that
00:52:13.200 and and just because you know I try and
00:52:15.359 be a really good Ally and there's times
00:52:17.200 that I'm like I come across something
00:52:18.920 I'm like you know I should post on this
00:52:20.839 but I don't know if I should or not you
00:52:23.640 know because am I going to get apart for
00:52:27.119 giving my you know and and there's a
00:52:28.960 couple of things I mean from my
00:52:30.280 perspective because I am in congregation
00:52:32.720 leadership and it was always difficult
00:52:35.079 for me because you're responsible for
00:52:36.880 every single person within your
00:52:38.079 congregation and it's a variety of
00:52:40.000 people there are many type of people
00:52:41.720 that are involved from allies up and
00:52:44.240 they are all people who matter to me and
00:52:46.359 to many of the other congregation heads
00:52:48.119 I know um so when people are angry about
00:52:50.640 things that aren't happening I ask well
00:52:52.839 what are we doing we are the people that
00:52:54.920 help to to further this to lead this to
00:52:58.240 put these things out there and champag
00:52:59.839 it and I don't see a ton of people and
00:53:02.119 I'll say it just blatant trans satanic
00:53:04.960 Alliance is a thing trans satanic exist
00:53:08.119 they've been trying to get people to
00:53:09.359 join them they have membership open they
00:53:11.319 have a lot of things they're trying to
00:53:12.680 accomplish from um donations and
00:53:14.920 membership uh opportunities and that's a
00:53:18.040 thing everyone can do and I don't hear
00:53:19.599 them shouting that from the rooftop but
00:53:21.240 if they did something wrong I guarantee
00:53:23.880 that there would be a loud Mega just
00:53:25.680 pushing that out there and that's a
00:53:27.760 problem um that we have to address yeah
00:53:30.240 I I think in the first part of the
00:53:32.200 letter not like my statement but just
00:53:34.280 the general letter we wrote something
00:53:36.920 like if if you're so upset about a
00:53:39.839 photograph if this Photograph can make
00:53:41.680 you feel like all of TST is transphobic
00:53:44.079 perhaps you're not doing enough to
00:53:46.119 cultivate the Optics that you want to
00:53:48.240 see in the world you know instead of
00:53:50.200 blaming Lucian and Malcolm that TST
00:53:52.720 seems transphobic maybe we should go to
00:53:55.760 those specific campaigns that are
00:53:57.680 dedicated where that's their job and
00:53:59.920 help them cultivate the Optics we want
00:54:01.839 to see in the world exact biggest
00:54:05.240 Revelations for me was um like as a
00:54:09.119 person on a personal growth scale was
00:54:12.839 this um concept of abundance mindset
00:54:16.720 that I I will go and talk for another
00:54:19.200 hour about how how I believe in it and
00:54:22.200 what it means and all that but the basic
00:54:24.040 idea is that when we when we change our
00:54:26.559 mindset from a scarcity mindset which is
00:54:29.960 you know I only have so much energy or
00:54:32.480 everything's a threat or um like I have
00:54:35.520 to kind of protect uh me or my community
00:54:39.160 or my space uh from all of these bad
00:54:42.400 things um you tend to watchat out more
00:54:45.240 you tend to be more aggressive and you
00:54:47.680 tend to have this this loathing of of
00:54:52.599 yourself your life and the people in it
00:54:54.880 but when we switch that to you know I
00:54:57.559 have plenty I have plenty of energy I
00:55:00.119 have plenty of opportunity um that just
00:55:03.280 opened so many doors for me and it
00:55:05.440 allowed me to stop focusing on like wow
00:55:08.200 I've had a really shitty life up until
00:55:09.960 this point and I'm not happy so I'm
00:55:11.880 going to be angry about that um and I'm
00:55:14.720 going to see everything that's out to
00:55:17.000 get me as you know proof and validation
00:55:20.319 for how I feel instead it's like wow I
00:55:23.520 want to make sure that that doesn't
00:55:24.680 happen somebody else again I'm going to
00:55:27.119 use this as an opportunity to you know
00:55:29.520 change everything about my life to to
00:55:33.039 make it so that that's that's my cause
00:55:35.480 that's my my feeling and I think if we
00:55:38.000 take that approach even in areas that
00:55:40.760 we're not too fond of or like like oh
00:55:43.400 that's maybe not so good seeing it as an
00:55:45.559 opportunity is so so much healthier like
00:55:49.960 TST is not doing enough for Trans rights
00:55:52.319 okay I'm going to look at that and say
00:55:54.160 wow this is is so exciting that means
00:55:57.480 that there are opportunities for us to
00:55:59.680 do so much more instead of blaming you
00:56:03.240 know like the one CIS person at the top
00:56:06.119 for not doing it for you yeah I I mean
00:56:08.799 that seems to me the most UNS satanic
00:56:11.359 thing ever is to be like fix it for
00:56:14.680 me no we're Satanist we get [ __ ] done I
00:56:18.200 mean right the queer activists of the
00:56:21.400 AIDS crisis um did not ask for any body
00:56:25.440 from any organization to do things for
00:56:28.000 them and I I think the reason I bring
00:56:30.359 that example up is because you know I
00:56:33.400 think when we look at queer activism
00:56:35.720 throughout history one of the most
00:56:37.920 amazing things is how varied it has been
00:56:40.720 how organized has been all of the
00:56:43.240 different forms that it's taken um all
00:56:46.160 all predating social media and I promise
00:56:48.119 I'll stop slaming social media at one at
00:56:50.720 some point during this conversation but
00:56:52.799 stop posting a touch grass 2024
00:56:58.160 I could listen to you talk for five
00:56:59.599 hours you're good I think so yeah what
00:57:02.319 we have to do now is figure out what is
00:57:04.319 our part here and how do we change this
00:57:07.280 from outrage to action and do what
00:57:11.559 Kaylee said about making this an
00:57:14.480 opportunity of abundance instead of the
00:57:17.079 overwhelming thing that it feels like
00:57:18.680 right now right and how I everyone in
00:57:21.920 TST can can help and we're not put it
00:57:25.240 all on one or two people at the top you
00:57:28.280 you know it's how can how can folks you
00:57:31.400 can't onf founder something just just
00:57:33.280 put it out there
00:57:37.760 yeah sorry before before we move on to
00:57:41.960 the solutions I do want to say that um I
00:57:45.160 mean people [ __ ] pin their [ __ ] on
00:57:48.839 Lucian all the time and hate on him but
00:57:52.119 they don't seem to know how lucky we are
00:57:54.960 to have a leader like that not just that
00:57:58.039 he can go on Fox and run around Tucker
00:58:01.920 Carlson and Jesse walers and Megan Kelly
00:58:04.559 in circles and make them
00:58:06.680 go um he is so articulate um but also
00:58:12.160 like think about some of the religious
00:58:14.839 leaders out there many of them um like
00:58:18.480 in the Mormon and Christian and Catholic
00:58:21.839 faith um they demand it's all about them
00:58:25.920 they're a charismatic leader um only
00:58:28.640 they get to talk to God like Joel Austin
00:58:31.720 has like 17 mansions and 20 private jets
00:58:36.240 and he's convinced his flock that he
00:58:38.720 deserves all that um and there's so many
00:58:42.280 dangers of a movement like that because
00:58:44.960 Church of Satan was was that and is
00:58:47.359 still that where the word of L is now
00:58:50.039 taken as gospel which is kind of the
00:58:52.799 opposite what he wanted but like Church
00:58:55.799 of Satan was Anton LA and when he died
00:58:59.640 it just kind of fell into a shell of
00:59:02.119 itself um and we won't have that problem
00:59:06.559 because both Lucian and Malcolm I've
00:59:08.760 noticed from the very beginning were
00:59:11.319 very clear about it wasn't about them
00:59:15.319 they have declined every request um for
00:59:19.119 them to talk about their personal lives
00:59:21.640 um their
00:59:22.880 relationships um and anything about them
00:59:25.880 and they have pushed and pushed and
00:59:27.760 pushed whenever the media has tried to
00:59:29.680 turn that on him he has pushed it onto
00:59:32.839 TS and so like when you look at that and
00:59:37.000 you look at what could have been we we
00:59:40.280 got really really lucky with somebody
00:59:43.280 who
00:59:44.240 deliberately um and this is something he
00:59:46.240 told me he deliberately doesn't want to
00:59:49.160 be the whole movement the charismatic
00:59:51.680 leader I mean you know those guys are
00:59:54.240 crook Joel Austin should go to jail for
00:59:57.400 yeah putting little old ladies in the
00:59:59.119 porous you know and here we have someone
01:00:01.799 with principles um and an extremely
01:00:05.359 sharp mind that can do a great job um
01:00:09.200 you know speaking for us and I think you
01:00:12.079 know I I'm I'm totally fangirling here
01:00:15.480 but just when I think of the alternative
01:00:17.760 I think we're really lucky yeah I'll
01:00:19.720 pain your teos a little bit and say I
01:00:21.640 love I love Lucian for the things that
01:00:23.799 he's been and put out there just as I
01:00:25.839 appreciate what L started and what we
01:00:27.960 were able to build from what L started
01:00:30.200 and so many before him and so many that
01:00:32.599 will hopefully come after Lucian does
01:00:34.720 things I sometimes think are idiotic
01:00:36.760 he's gone on the news before and made
01:00:38.520 statements that I was beside myself
01:00:40.720 going why would you actually say that
01:00:42.480 and yet like you said he's very
01:00:44.119 articulate he can roll those people in
01:00:47.319 ways that they don't even realize
01:00:48.400 they've been rolled until they're oh
01:00:50.000 crap they just owned my ass what oh and
01:00:53.280 you know it's this this there's this
01:00:55.200 duality of him and I appreciate that and
01:00:57.880 yet I know that the hope is we can get
01:01:00.240 our [ __ ] together and move that forward
01:01:03.200 after they're no longer around yeah TST
01:01:05.920 isn't just solution you know that's
01:01:08.280 that's the difference and that's what a
01:01:10.000 lot of people from some or other
01:01:12.160 organizations have a hard time
01:01:13.960 understanding and comprehending because
01:01:15.440 some of these other organizations they
01:01:17.920 are the spoken word of their their you
01:01:22.240 know Creator or leader or whatever you
01:01:24.960 know Lucian didn't write a you know TST
01:01:28.680 Bible he not not a damn one of us are
01:01:32.200 perfect and that's the point yeah we
01:01:34.839 don't need I think I think I do want to
01:01:37.280 add though that like yeah like tsp is
01:01:39.640 not just him but he is part of it and
01:01:41.960 and I think people need to stop trying
01:01:43.720 to remove him oh yeah from this because
01:01:46.599 that's just not possible yeah he said
01:01:48.760 and I don't understand why people want
01:01:50.280 to remove him from his own work like
01:01:52.960 that that will never make sense to me
01:01:54.920 and and I think that's important moving
01:01:57.000 forward that we need to like we need to
01:01:59.480 look at each other as a as a team and he
01:02:02.960 is part of that team and and people need
01:02:05.279 to put some respect on his name yeah
01:02:08.000 definitely he he's part of it um you
01:02:11.240 can't unfound something you know he
01:02:13.599 can't unfound it well his life is on the
01:02:17.279 line all the time because of the choice
01:02:19.520 that he made willingly to stand up for
01:02:22.599 People Like Us whatever I might feel
01:02:24.680 about some of the things he does I
01:02:26.000 respect that yeah and and most of the
01:02:28.880 time when people are like when they're
01:02:30.760 upset over the Silverman photo and
01:02:32.200 saying you should step down ultimately
01:02:34.319 what it comes down to is he's I think it
01:02:37.200 would take I think there are very few
01:02:39.279 other people in that situation who would
01:02:42.119 withstand the outrage who wouldn't bow
01:02:44.799 to it and issue statements and he
01:02:47.400 consistently keeps TST on track he says
01:02:50.920 you know we're in our wheelhouse these
01:02:52.720 are the things that we're focused on and
01:02:54.799 I wish that more leaders would take the
01:02:57.039 same approach I think we would be a
01:02:58.920 stronger PST if they did agree I
01:03:02.000 appreciate um you know like I was
01:03:05.319 talking about with with Murphy like you
01:03:07.359 reaching out and asking like hey I might
01:03:10.440 have a blind spot here or you know I I
01:03:12.839 want to understand this better from from
01:03:14.960 your perspective um lucian's essentially
01:03:18.319 done that with with a lot of trans
01:03:20.079 issues like um people say that we should
01:03:22.920 do more uh I I would like to have
01:03:26.119 somebody you know come up with a
01:03:27.720 comprehensive plan about what to do or
01:03:30.319 or some kind of ideas for us uh and
01:03:32.799 there is work that's being done I I
01:03:34.839 think recognizing that you know one
01:03:37.599 person doesn't have all the answers and
01:03:39.680 seeking out others to help build this
01:03:42.319 community into something that
01:03:44.160 accomplishes uh actual tangible material
01:03:47.680 safety for you know trans people for for
01:03:51.520 any religious minority that is is being
01:03:54.319 dominated by a Christian majority like
01:03:56.960 all of these things are are big complex
01:03:59.920 issues that no one person has the answer
01:04:02.240 for and having somebody who's in a
01:04:05.480 position that's so communicative with
01:04:08.359 the community um and is like I will help
01:04:13.319 you get this done but I need your input
01:04:16.400 is is important to me I think that
01:04:18.680 that's a valuable and admirable trait in
01:04:21.440 a leader and I still have a pair of his
01:04:23.720 sunglasses and he's not getting them
01:04:27.400 back and I think a lot of people are
01:04:30.079 very afraid to ask you know uh for
01:04:33.839 clarification or for help whether it's a
01:04:37.440 fear that they're going to be
01:04:40.240 embarrassed or you know what not I I
01:04:43.480 don't know what the where that fear is
01:04:45.760 coming from but I do think you know
01:04:47.319 there are people that they have that
01:04:48.960 fear and I just think we need more Unity
01:04:51.839 with inside of TST hell with inside of
01:04:55.000 Satanism at all as a whole I mean we've
01:04:57.920 got like you said we've got Christian
01:04:59.839 nationalists that are that are taking
01:05:01.559 over our government and we're you know
01:05:04.319 complaining about things that really
01:05:07.119 don't matter in the end of the day in
01:05:09.039 comparison yeah yeah we reach for the
01:05:11.799 pitchforks too quickly yeah we're saying
01:05:14.880 we should be able to have conversations
01:05:16.400 and understand each other need to learn
01:05:19.039 to deescalate that I think is the root
01:05:22.079 of of the solution to this right is is
01:05:25.640 finding a way to have a conversation uh
01:05:29.359 distinguish you know conflict from abuse
01:05:33.200 um and I I think you know for me um the
01:05:38.119 trans Community has like this this
01:05:40.160 notion of of trans Joy or career Joy or
01:05:42.760 lgbtq joy and I think we need to 2024 is
01:05:46.520 the year of satanic Joy I think you know
01:05:49.920 all my my snarky you know stop posting
01:05:52.400 and touch grass aside I think finding
01:05:55.599 those taking that abundant mindset and
01:05:57.559 finding the positive in ourselves and in
01:06:00.520 our peers and colleagues is going to be
01:06:03.039 what gets us through what is going to be
01:06:05.440 a terrifying year in the US especially
01:06:09.720 well not especially necessarily in a lot
01:06:11.760 of places but um it's going to get real
01:06:15.119 scary and I think um the only way that
01:06:19.680 we get through that intact is together
01:06:23.319 and when we put aside our squabbles our
01:06:26.599 differences and start recognizing that
01:06:28.799 we're part of a much bigger thing and
01:06:32.319 that we can find joy in that and we can
01:06:34.440 seize
01:06:35.880 opportunities uh to to educate each
01:06:39.319 other to learn and grow together it
01:06:41.920 sounds all very poana I know but in
01:06:44.359 practice it's real work when I say like
01:06:47.160 get to work you know I recognize that
01:06:49.720 there are people that are actually doing
01:06:51.480 material work but I think it's also work
01:06:53.039 on ourselves it's also being able to say
01:06:56.319 um you know I I recognize that this is a
01:06:59.319 little uncomfortable for me and this
01:07:01.279 feels you know I am having a knee-jerk
01:07:03.880 reaction to this um I think about this
01:07:07.400 is an odd comparison but like in
01:07:09.400 romantic relationships I really
01:07:11.000 struggled with jealousy and it helped
01:07:13.440 when I would just acknowledge it instead
01:07:15.680 of trying to be ashamed of it and say
01:07:18.079 I'm feeling a little jealous about that
01:07:19.920 like that's that's bringing it up to
01:07:21.440 those feelings for me and acknowledging
01:07:24.240 those in a like detached way to
01:07:26.839 something from from DBT and CBT
01:07:29.200 therapies like I think it's really
01:07:31.680 applicable to to the community as a
01:07:33.599 whole to acknowledge the feelings that
01:07:35.480 we're feeling and understand what we can
01:07:38.760 actually do or not do to move forward
01:07:42.200 yeah and since you said uh seize the
01:07:45.000 opportunity to teach people or have
01:07:47.960 lessons if you guys don't mind you can
01:07:50.200 cut this if you want but there are like
01:07:52.440 three specific lessons that I I'm hoping
01:07:54.920 we can all get on board with in 2024 and
01:07:59.440 so I know there was a lot of complaints
01:08:01.400 about the letter like people didn't like
01:08:03.400 the term middle management or whatever
01:08:05.760 even though it's accurate um but I know
01:08:08.279 like one of the things that I wrote I'm
01:08:10.000 actually going to stand by even though
01:08:11.559 it's very snarky I wrote I am unsure
01:08:14.079 when Ministry became a professional
01:08:15.760 babysitting service for the perpetually
01:08:17.719 offended MH and I to be clear we have
01:08:20.560 plenty of leaders who behave with
01:08:22.158 integrity and intellectual honesty who
01:08:24.238 consistently embody Enlightenment values
01:08:26.600 it's myp top priority to do a better job
01:08:29.158 of recognizing and appreciating them
01:08:31.439 empowering them and setting them up in
01:08:33.479 an environment that allows them to
01:08:35.279 succeed and Thrive conversely I've seen
01:08:38.120 middle management and Ministers of Stan
01:08:40.279 teaching congregants the following and
01:08:42.600 reinforcing what Greg lukanov and
01:08:44.560 Jonathan hate refer to as the three
01:08:46.359 great untruths and the first is the
01:08:48.359 untruth of fragility and that's when
01:08:50.520 I've seen ministers teach what doesn't
01:08:52.560 kill you makes you weak
01:08:54.399 Retreat from hardship indifference I
01:08:56.560 think instead we should treat we should
01:08:58.279 teach what Paradise loss demonstrates
01:09:01.158 the mind is its own place and in and is
01:09:04.359 in itself can make a heaven of a hell or
01:09:06.960 a hell of a heaven Satanist should
01:09:08.640 cultivate resilience not fragility they
01:09:11.000 don't need to be coddled they need to be
01:09:13.080 empowered so that's the first lesson
01:09:15.640 that I think we should focus on the
01:09:18.158 Second Great untruth is the untruth of
01:09:20.679 emotional reasoning so when you see
01:09:22.600 ministers teach always trust your
01:09:24.600 feelings emotional intu intuition trumps
01:09:27.839 reason and truth instead especially a
01:09:30.279 Satanist we should teach what really
01:09:32.640 frightens and dismays us is not external
01:09:35.120 events themselves but the way in which
01:09:37.359 we think about them and that's what Kaye
01:09:39.520 was talking about the abundance mindset
01:09:41.080 and everything it's not things that
01:09:43.080 deserve us but our interpretation of
01:09:45.439 their significance and that's an epic
01:09:47.198 tetus quote and then the third one and
01:09:49.439 I'll shut up in a second but the third
01:09:50.960 one is the untruth of US versus them
01:09:53.679 ministers are teaching life is a battle
01:09:55.400 between good people and bad people I am
01:09:57.840 good they are bad instead we should
01:10:00.400 teach people between stimulus and
01:10:02.719 response there is space in that space is
01:10:04.920 our power to choose our response in our
01:10:07.120 response lies our growth and our freedom
01:10:09.440 and that's a quote from Victor Frankle
01:10:11.280 who survived the Holocaust he's actually
01:10:13.360 been through some [ __ ] yeah that's
01:10:15.159 beautiful so in 2024 I want all of us to
01:10:18.400 be the adults in the room everyone wants
01:10:20.920 TSC to be political to be reactionary to
01:10:23.760 be nothing but trolls instead I want us
01:10:26.040 to be principles let's be the adults in
01:10:28.199 the room let's stay focused and create
01:10:30.360 real tangible change using our unique
01:10:33.120 tools and resources as Satanist
01:10:37.080 absolutely great L learn so between yeah
01:10:41.960 I've heard a lot of great suggestions
01:10:43.800 for how to how to deal with this going
01:10:45.880 forward in ways that because we have to
01:10:48.480 stop this it's it's a hamster wheel and
01:10:51.600 it just happens over and over again to
01:10:54.159 the point where um I'm just like oh
01:10:57.640 there it's happening again over there I
01:11:00.280 mean we're people so there's always
01:11:02.560 going to be like interpersonal
01:11:05.520 disagreements um like as a congregation
01:11:08.320 leader you're going to have people
01:11:10.120 potentially coming to you with
01:11:11.640 complaints about other people and so
01:11:14.520 there's all this people drama that you
01:11:17.000 know we have to deal with you know
01:11:18.960 because it's part of our job but like
01:11:21.760 there's also the Dr that we can create
01:11:25.960 and fuel with these larger issues um and
01:11:30.199 like not thinking before we just launch
01:11:33.159 into a Witch Hunt and when we don't get
01:11:35.880 our way we leave and we spend our lives
01:11:38.120 bashing TST like it's just happened over
01:11:41.600 and over again and like you know I come
01:11:45.440 from a team building background at a at
01:11:48.639 startup and like none of this [ __ ] would
01:11:51.719 fly I mean I'm not saying yay capitalism
01:11:55.400 but like I led teams and we were
01:11:57.880 successful because I listen to everyone
01:12:01.880 especially on their own strength and we
01:12:05.040 moved forward together but also it was
01:12:07.239 always a positive undertaking so as a
01:12:10.719 manager you're supposed to train your
01:12:13.280 people to come to you not with not just
01:12:15.800 with a complaint or problem but with
01:12:18.560 this possible suggestion for a fix
01:12:21.400 that's not to say that they you know
01:12:23.920 have to do a whole bunch more work but
01:12:26.080 but it puts them in the mindset at least
01:12:28.920 of well how can we de like in this case
01:12:31.960 it would be how can we deescalate how
01:12:34.800 can we recognize our biases so those
01:12:37.840 quotes that Murphy just like read the
01:12:40.960 untruths um and the scarcity mindset um
01:12:46.360 I think those are all good things that
01:12:48.840 if if people are aware of them and it
01:12:51.639 takes a long time to develop a habit of
01:12:54.159 being aware of some of these stuff this
01:12:56.159 stuff but I think it's really critical
01:12:58.520 um if we can move the needle little by
01:13:02.280 little I think we might be able to stop
01:13:05.560 this recurrence um because it's hurtful
01:13:08.440 it's hurtful to everybody involved um in
01:13:12.120 the 2018 split people who were my
01:13:15.800 dearest friends in TST suddenly weren't
01:13:19.960 they hated me because I was still part
01:13:22.120 of TST and it's just like as all you
01:13:25.199 have said there are so many bigger fish
01:13:28.199 to fry like and and one more thing
01:13:31.080 before I'm just going to stop talking
01:13:32.840 after this but so I have this equation
01:13:36.040 that I wish people would use a little
01:13:37.679 more often um and uh it's is what is
01:13:43.120 bothering me greater than the good that
01:13:47.000 TST is doing you know should I leave or
01:13:50.120 not basically so um this year I was hand
01:13:53.480 at a decision that was extremely hard
01:13:56.440 for me to take personally I was
01:13:59.120 personally upset and I considered
01:14:02.920 walking away after eight years um and I
01:14:06.800 even started kind of pulling back from
01:14:09.320 my congregation but then I saw firsthand
01:14:13.080 how things changed you know because I
01:14:15.520 was part of a group and people became a
01:14:18.800 little less productive and less
01:14:21.639 enthusiastic um and I really had to
01:14:24.000 think like yeah I'm upset and you know I
01:14:27.120 think I've been wrong but on the other
01:14:29.320 hand there's everything that TST does
01:14:32.159 that is critical right now and also
01:14:34.760 there's tons of really good people in
01:14:37.400 this community um and I've never met any
01:14:41.679 other community like it where I feel
01:14:43.840 like it like I'm at home and people are
01:14:46.480 genuinely trying to make a difference
01:14:49.360 and it's just that end of the scale is
01:14:52.800 so much much heavier that I was like you
01:14:55.400 know what I can this upsets me
01:14:57.320 personally but in the Brer scheme of
01:14:59.840 things I want to continue helping
01:15:02.159 because we have a real spot at making
01:15:04.239 change in a and in a time especially in
01:15:07.600 the US where it is absolutely critical
01:15:10.960 where we are looking at the end of our
01:15:12.960 democracy and the rise of actual
01:15:15.960 Theocratic
01:15:17.560 Fascism and you know my little butt hurt
01:15:20.800 thing doesn't Trump that at all so
01:15:24.120 anyway the equation do the
01:15:27.000 equation when all of this was happening
01:15:29.159 and it was super embarrassing I'm not
01:15:31.040 saying that like I didn't necessarily
01:15:32.679 want to walk away from TST because
01:15:34.159 people acted stupid but I was very
01:15:35.880 frustrated that this was the Optics you
01:15:38.400 know and then Liz and I started talking
01:15:40.920 about what can we do and we decided to
01:15:42.520 write the letter and then I can't tell
01:15:44.400 you and I think Liz would agree with me
01:15:45.920 like the like weight that we felt lifted
01:15:48.760 off of our shoulders once we started
01:15:50.600 talking to you guys and you agreed it's
01:15:52.639 just like okay like this is our
01:15:54.120 community people care people are smart
01:15:56.280 we're not we're not witch Hunters we
01:15:58.520 know what we're doing I mean just the
01:16:00.639 fact that this podcast is happening like
01:16:03.480 I I can't express enough how much I
01:16:06.719 appreciate you guys for inviting us and
01:16:09.480 everybody for participating because like
01:16:12.560 I said this this felt to me like I was
01:16:14.719 burning the bridge with TST and and and
01:16:19.679 I said [ __ ] it because like like we have
01:16:22.280 all been saying we have a really really
01:16:24.360 stressful year ahead and we need each
01:16:26.120 other like we are going to have to lean
01:16:28.239 on each other and we' be stupid to not
01:16:31.280 take advantage of this beautiful
01:16:33.000 community that has been built yeah it's
01:16:35.800 stupid it's stupid of us to not focus on
01:16:40.280 just learning how to coexist learning
01:16:42.159 how to trust each other learning how to
01:16:43.800 deescalate situations not jump to
01:16:47.120 wanting to OU each other or like Outcast
01:16:50.159 each other over minor things it's like
01:16:53.199 no we need to we can't keep doing that
01:16:55.800 yeah not healthy we're supposed to be
01:16:57.679 adults yeah you know I think in one of
01:16:59.760 our conversations you mentioned you've
01:17:01.760 already unpacked and moved in and damn
01:17:03.719 it you're not moving out yep yeah
01:17:06.440 exactly I'm like I'm literally like like
01:17:09.360 if TST was a campus I live like on one
01:17:13.000 of those benches somewhere like that's
01:17:14.719 where I'm at and I'm not going anywhere
01:17:16.800 so was that philosopher that lived in
01:17:19.239 the wine cast I don't know but I I am
01:17:22.880 that person yeah and I'm not I'm not
01:17:27.199 yeah at the end of the day I think the
01:17:29.080 the the the message is more about hey
01:17:32.000 how do we unify how do we stop you know
01:17:36.360 blowing up every time some thing happens
01:17:40.679 that in the grand scheme of things
01:17:43.199 really isn't all that big you know I I
01:17:46.800 understand maybe you feel hurt right now
01:17:49.520 or you feel angry or or you don't like
01:17:53.400 so and so um but that doesn't mean you
01:17:56.920 know blow the whole thing up you know
01:17:59.440 because there's a whole lot more good
01:18:01.239 being done and it's time maybe for some
01:18:06.280 self-reflection why was I angry about
01:18:09.000 this why you I don't think we talk
01:18:11.239 enough about learning to sip with our
01:18:12.960 discomfort to just be uncomfortable with
01:18:15.320 a thought a feeling an idea a situation
01:18:17.600 for a little while and really understand
01:18:19.840 in ourselves what is making me feel this
01:18:22.120 way why am I so reactive to XYZ issue
01:18:26.520 and how can I do something to make it
01:18:28.520 different um and I think that's go ahead
01:18:32.040 I think sorry go ahead I think
01:18:35.719 ultimately we have to like I think the
01:18:38.360 root the root cause of all of this is
01:18:40.600 the fact that if you say the wrong thing
01:18:42.800 people are going to start a Witch Hunt
01:18:44.719 against you and you're going to be out
01:18:46.520 out from the community so it's like we
01:18:48.480 need to knock that [ __ ] off like out the
01:18:50.280 gate then he stop because that is that
01:18:52.440 is the reason reason why everybody's so
01:18:53.960 like oh my God I can't say the wrong
01:18:55.400 thing and it's like it's like no we we
01:18:57.199 need to be able to talk to each other
01:18:58.600 and we need to be able to have like the
01:19:00.280 conversations that Murphy and Kaylee
01:19:02.960 have and we need to be able to just be
01:19:05.280 like bro I don't know what the [ __ ] is
01:19:06.560 going on like can you help me like like
01:19:08.880 that's what community is like we need to
01:19:10.800 be there for each other we need to like
01:19:13.239 it it's not about oh I read more books
01:19:15.320 and I know more than you and you should
01:19:16.920 be embarrassed that you don't know no no
01:19:19.400 you need to bring Elevate people bring
01:19:22.159 people up with
01:19:23.520 like learn and and also people need to
01:19:25.960 learn to to let others do their thing
01:19:29.199 even if they don't understand it like
01:19:31.080 I've always felt like there's always
01:19:32.600 this sort of like I don't know this
01:19:34.679 strange attitude towards movie night and
01:19:37.080 it's just like we literally just watch
01:19:38.480 movies y'all like that's literally all
01:19:40.199 we do just watch movies on Wednesdays
01:19:42.199 like Wednesday is literally like like
01:19:44.120 how people go to church on Sundays
01:19:45.719 Wednesday is that for me is when I can
01:19:47.679 just unplug from the world and just be
01:19:50.760 there with my with my community
01:19:53.719 um and that's it and so it's like Co
01:19:56.040 even if you don't understand it that's
01:19:57.639 fine but please just let us
01:20:00.080 be right I mean we're Satanist for a
01:20:02.840 [ __ ] sake you know and there's
01:20:05.600 something that gives me hope and that's
01:20:07.679 that I have seen within the ministry
01:20:09.920 lately um discussions on how we can like
01:20:15.400 create a tangible um discussion series
01:20:19.000 between us um where we practice holding
01:20:23.440 difficult Concepts in our mind and
01:20:26.280 discussing like difficult sensitive
01:20:29.360 contact while still like not
01:20:32.880 internalizing them not having your
01:20:35.239 emotions take over and just to have that
01:20:38.400 very open mind that you can acknowledge
01:20:41.600 that someone else has a position and
01:20:44.679 it's not just automatically stupid and
01:20:48.159 you should be snarky and you know tear
01:20:51.000 it down but no that person has good
01:20:53.679 reasons for that belief even if it's not
01:20:56.639 your belief and then from there agree to
01:20:59.360 have a respectful dialogue that you know
01:21:03.280 might end up with both of you agreeing
01:21:05.880 or maybe not but you're still respecting
01:21:08.679 both each other and also the
01:21:10.880 conversation and not just flying into
01:21:14.080 you know fear and Terror and and
01:21:16.760 othering because satanists pretty much
01:21:20.280 have all been othered and we need to
01:21:22.320 stop doing that to each other yeah yeah
01:21:24.760 and I think you know it is the skill
01:21:27.239 it's something that needs practice it
01:21:29.120 really is um and you know I think to add
01:21:33.159 on to that it's also you know about
01:21:36.880 understanding that when someone does an
01:21:39.080 action that's an action and we have this
01:21:42.040 tendency to project that onto other
01:21:45.760 people um and you know turn that into
01:21:50.199 something about the person's character
01:21:53.600 um and then kind of extrapolate In This
01:21:56.960 Very like essentialist kind of way like
01:22:00.040 well this person you know is x when
01:22:03.400 instead we should be saying this person
01:22:05.280 did
01:22:06.639 y um yeah a very good we've all shared
01:22:11.400 what what we think will be helpful
01:22:13.080 useful and how we can all choose to grow
01:22:15.320 and learn through the situation and I
01:22:17.440 think I'll just close by saying there is
01:22:19.040 no Community without unity and it's a
01:22:22.040 dumb way to look at it and it's it's
01:22:23.800 really keyy but it really is who we can
01:22:26.600 choose to be we value critical thinking
01:22:28.320 and knowledge and pushing against the
01:22:29.960 arbitrary athority and we can't become
01:22:32.679 that arbitrary Authority and that
01:22:34.840 ignorant aspect that we fight so hard
01:22:37.080 against
01:22:38.199 so thank you guys so much thank you so
01:22:41.040 much for thank you so much for giving us
01:22:43.520 a platform I mean it's true I think all
01:22:47.120 or most of us had had some fear about
01:22:50.960 speaking out um and we shouldn't as
01:22:54.040 Satan um but you know you guys have kind
01:22:57.120 of stuck your necks out for us as well
01:23:00.239 um Prett now you have our
01:23:02.960 cooties I'm covered in cooties it's fine
01:23:05.320 I'm covered in yeah I you know if people
01:23:08.600 are going to not like me because you
01:23:11.159 know I gave a a platform or I agree with
01:23:14.440 something or I disagree with something
01:23:16.639 else that's their problem not mine all
01:23:19.280 of you are part of the community though
01:23:20.800 and we aren't a community without person
01:23:23.080 here that's who you're representing is
01:23:24.719 the Greater Community maybe people are
01:23:26.639 scared to say something but we are the
01:23:29.360 adversary and we don't need to be
01:23:31.199 enemies but we can be adversarial one
01:23:33.480 another and still accomplish the things
01:23:35.320 we need to do yeah we don't have to like
01:23:37.199 everybody and you know that's that's
01:23:39.639 fine you can still work with people that
01:23:41.040 you
01:23:42.120 don't I'm very proud of all of you I
01:23:44.520 think what you did was incredibly
01:23:46.520 satanic I think what we're doing today
01:23:48.520 opens up the door for conversation if
01:23:50.120 people are willing to move forward with
01:23:51.520 it and I am proud to be part of it so
01:23:54.159 thank you for letting us be part of this
01:23:55.639 with you um I look forward to
01:23:59.320 so everyone you guys are the best all
01:24:02.120 right H hail all of you hail
01:24:05.280 Satan
01:24:09.550 [Music]
01:24:19.920 Satan